sex & monogamy.
I’ve been getting a few quizzical emails suggesting to me that I should back up and explain a bit about where I’m coming from, how I view sex, why sex matters to me, what my deal is with relationships. And I keep getting questions about that Sawyer interview. So this is sort of a FAQ post.
I’ve had several serious, monogamous relationships in my life. These were all with great good-on-paper men, all kind, intelligent, ambitious, successful. In most cases, the sexual connection was the first to go, and it wasn’t for lack of attraction. There was just something about the nature of the relationship that killed the sex, maybe neglect and domestic tedium, or maybe a mutual failure to make sex a priority. The relationship would march on, but the loss of an active sexual connection was always depressing to me. I walked away from these relationships with an increasing fear of commitment and new priority on sex.
Sex is important to me because I get more out of sex than just an orgasm. I tend to express myself better physically than verbally, so if the sex starts to die, a large part of that connection dies with it.
Taken further, sex can push my limits in ways other experiences can’t. I crave that. The range of destruction and elevation varies, just as partners and relationships vary.
It’s pleasurable.
There’s also the adventure. I love the sense of discovery with a new partner, or the adrenaline rush that comes from a new, disorienting, surprising, challenging scenario.
Sex with someone changes over time in interesting and beautiful ways. Aggressive sex tends to expand my boundaries; intimate sex tends to deepen the territory within those limits. It allows me to shut off my brain, to be primal, physical, and open, and to experience someone else in an equally primal state. It heightens my empathy. It reminds me to stay in the moment.
And promiscuity was an important part of my development as a woman. Promiscuity made it possible for me to better understand myself, my emotional needs, my kinks, my physical range, my priorities, as well as my relationship to other people. When we accuse women (never men, always women) of having no respect for their bodies when they sleep many, many men, we’re working from the assumption that sex itself is degrading to women (never men), when the contrary should be true. That nagging, pervasive Judeo-Christian construct of sex as some corruptive force keeps us defensive and nervous when we should be forthright and proud.
My rejection of sex-as-sin morality isn’t new – I think every major artistic movement has fucked out of social, sometime political, defiance, but it never seems to stick, maybe because it’s mostly men who are doing the rejecting, the fighting, and the fucking. Or maybe because history is predictable and repetitive – there’s always a backlash, and then a backlash to the backlash. Whatever it is, I’m just another promiscuous blip in a continuum of irreverent fucking.
I should touch on that interview now. First, I should say that there was a fair bit of editing in that clip. They preserved much of the general dynamic and tone, but there was one moment that effectively undercut everything I’d said, a moment that didn’t exist in the actual interview. It was made to look as though I agreed to a question suggesting that a fear of commitment could be considered an emotional problem – that never happened, nor would I ever agree to that suggestion. What bothers me about that moment, apart from being made to feel like a marionette, is that if I’d been a man, that suggestion never would have been made. It’s always okay for a man to be afraid of commitment and vulnerability – if it weren’t, bad comedians would have no material and romantic comedies would have no plot. But a woman who’s afraid of commitment? Suddenly, it’s a pathology, or in my case, a pathology underscored with a stroke of business sense.
I’m certainly uncomfortable with vulnerability – I’ve only just begun to spend the night with Gabriel after however many nights of slipping out while he drifted to sleep – but I’m generally afraid of commitment because I’m not convinced monogamy is always the right way to go. I believe having a partner than can last us through several life transitions is wonderful, even ideal, but also extraordinary. I’ve seen too many unhappy marriages to believe it’s the norm, and I question whether we should expect it to be.
So, on monogamy: I don’t have it all figured out, though I was interested to see bits of my blog quoted in New York Magazine on this very subject, as if I’d stumbled upon the holy grail of pansexual debauchery (if I have, then it’s not hard to find). I don’t know many happy monogamous couples, but I don’t know many happy polyamorous or open couples either. It just leads me to conclude that relationships aren’t easy, that we need to figure out what works for us, individually, that we need plenty of experience to make those determinations. For myself, I take it as it comes. My relationship with Gabriel isn’t monogamous, but it feels more intimate than an open relationship. I’m free to sleep with other people; he’s certainly free to do the same. We communicate, we play it by ear. And, so far, it seems to work.
Thank you for mentioning (and clarifying) the reference from New York Magazine. I read that article too, and as a reader of your blog I was a bit disappointed by the way the author of the article referenced what you’ve written here. I suppose it’s further proof that we all – at least, those of us who don’t know you – project what we want to feel on your writing. And I’m guilty of that too, of course; one of the reasons that I find this blog meaningful is that you don’t pretend to know everything, or to have the answer to any sort of monogamy or polygamy dilemma. Instead, it seems as if you’re on the same quest to figure things out as we all are, as a strong and self-aware woman. (And I can’t NOT admit that all of this may well be a reflection of what I want to read, too!)
I guess what I want to say is that this particular post resonated with me because I find your thoughts on sex and monogamy to be way too complex to fit into any one cubbyhole. And the more sex and monogamy I have, or encounter, the more I realize that this is the way things are meant to be. So, thank you.
“I don’t know many happy monogamous couples, but I don’t know many happy polyamorous or open couples either. It just leads me to conclude that relationships aren’t easy, that we need to figure out what works for us, individually, that we need plenty of experience to make those determinations.”
Agreed. It’s nice to have something that is above labels. Plus maybe we need to redefine the label of “relationship”. One of the best relationships I ever had wasn’t exclusive, but it was very emotionally & physically intimate. Just because we weren’t dating or celebrating anniversaries didn’t mean we didn’t have some sort of relationship.
I also say that relationships are always in need of care and work. It’s the loving part that should be easy. That may be a little too hokey and roses for here, but oh well.
“Real love is the love that sometimes arises after sensual pleasure: if it does, it is immortal; the other kind inevitably goes stale, for it lies in mere fantasy.”
- Giacamo Casanova
I don’t think I can add any more to that!
But doesn’t the idea of your lover having sex with another person just make you wanna scream? I want a relationship where I am polygamous but my lover is monogamous. Thats how its been so far – and all my relationships have failed….*tears*
And hale to the modern women – promiscuous and noncommittal just like all us men. Its about time!
This post resonated with me and made me wonder why I seem to be walking down some parts of the same path, even if a good few paces behind. I’m very interested in the triggers that make one avoid commitment and question monogamy. I’ll try and see if I can describe what I think mine were, I’d be interested to hear if anyone else has had similar experiences.
I used to find it easy to commit and as a result had two monogamous and happy relationships of significance spanning roughly ten years. The first lasted eight years where I was ultimately the one most wounded and the second lasted two years where I did more of the wounding in the end. Neglect and a small dash of domestic tedium certainly played their part in killing both of them. So in my early thirties I found myself single for the first time in a long while.
Not wanting to hurt or be hurt again appears to be the initial trigger that led me to start avoiding getting involved too deeply with anyone I met. This fear of commitment was fueled too by watching other people play the ‘pretending to be grown up’ game without actually realising that they’d stopped growing. Avoiding commitment has brought me a great deal more fucking, more excitement, more intensity of feeling, a better understanding of what makes me and others tick and much much better sex. It’s addictive and it makes me question the validity of monogamy.
For now at least, I think too that it’s a reluctance to let anyone near, a reluctance to sacrifice my freedom, laziness, a desire to fuck freely and frequently, coupled with a desire for self-discovery that keeps me from committing. However, the romantic in me is glad to have noted that Gabriel may signal a possible route off this path for you. The posts in which you mention him crackle with a different kind of excitement and electricity than those seemingly fuelled by sex alone. I think it’s worth being on this path for a while, in fact I recommend taking it. I guess that I’d just like to know that there is an ‘Exit’ sign somewhere up ahead. It would be heartening to know if you think you might have spotted it? As I’ve said not committing can be addictive and I guess nobody wants to be an addict.
How bout not wanting commitment with a partner because you already have huge responsibilities to other people? Like in my case, kids and parents. The idea of taking on another person leaves me hyperventilating. Plus what about career? Friends? Self? There’s only so much time and energy.
Have been missing your posts, glad to read them again.
On the differing perceptions of male and female promiscuity, I once heard that in Latin cultures, the males in gay relationships are also viewed differently depending on if they are tops or bottoms. Sodomy is bad, but the sodomizer is less disapproved of than the bottom in intercourse because the top is doing what is natural for males. It’s the whole machismo thing, and I think it’s really interesting when you compare it to heterosexual couples and the sexism between males and females.
Definitely not the same, just parallel…
“I’m certainly uncomfortable with vulnerability ”
Yes, but isn’t experiencing vulnerability part of what makes it feel more intimate with Gabriel? I’m always in circles as well about open/poly/partnership and all. I think that something that bonds me to somebody is knowing that it is safe for me to be vulnerable. To also get to explore and embody the part of myself that must be held constantly at bay to survive as an unconventional woman.
Being able to hold that space for your lover as well is essential. My sexiest and longest-lasting relationships with commitments of varying degrees have been with individuals who could share and explore both of our vulnerabilities without abusing the power dynamic.
You write so beautifully on this. Thank you!
What makes people think that they can question you about anything? I believe that you open yourself up enough on your blog. You offer us your most intimate moments and thoughts and people still feel like you are not giving them enough information? Fuck them. You do not owe anyone an explanation of any kind. Regardless, of your orientation, your preference in reltionships, or any interviews you may do.
On another note: I have been married for 12 years and am in a monogomous relationship. We have an exciting sexual relationship and still have an attraction for each other. Marriage and relationships are hard an require a great deal of work. It is easy to just give up, but it is so much easier in the long run to just work through it.
This post was wonderful because my questions about these very things are what drew me to your blog in the first place. My whole life is in one of those delicious up in the air places, and so finding wet, warm prose about sex and monogamy and beauty and art and whatever is too fascinating.
Also, if you haven’t read it, Scheherazade Goes West by Fatema Mernissi is a book about some of the fundamental differences between how women are perceived in the West versus the Middle East. The author becomes obsessed with this question: “Why did the enlightened West, obsessed with democracy and human rights, discard Scheherazade’s brainy sensuality and political message in their versions of the tales?” (pg 68) It’s pretty well researched (I think, a lot of the sources are in French, the author is Moroccan). In any case, I’m really curious what you’d think of the book and its conclusions.
But doesn’t the idea of your lover having sex with another person just make you wanna scream?
No. In fact, I know that my lover is likely to learn more through sex with other people, and will bring that knowledge and experience to the bedroom with me. I think of it like reading. If you read one genre of book to the exclusion of others, then you limit your experience with reading and expanding your mind. If you limit your sex to just your partner, over time it will tend to stagnate. Allowing your partner to experience others not only allows them to expand their horizons sexually, but also frequently expands yours as well because that accumulated knowledge comes to you through them. Many people can’t dissociate the emotional and physical aspects of a relationship, but I have always been able to do that. So long as my partner and I have that emotional bond, I don’t care who s/he fucks.
Obviously, it doesn’t work for everyone, but I have been in an open relationship for almost four years now and it has worked very well for us. YMMV, of course.
And promiscuity was an important part of my development as a woman. Promiscuity made it possible for me to better understand myself, my emotional needs, my kinks, my physical range, my priorities, as well as my relationship to other people.
I can’t agree with this more. I’d never thought about it until I read your words, but reflecting on my life to this point, I’d say that is a wholly accurate characterization of how I feel about it as well. Excellently worded.
This is the first time I’ve been to your blog and I’m glad I came across it. Over the past few months I’ve had different thoughts on monogamy and if you haven’t clarified things here, you’ve certainly given me new material to think about and I plan on exploring your archives a bit.
I’ve discovered about myself that I need intimacy, not only physical, but emotional, and I’ve got that out of monogamous relationships in the past. Now, though, I’m not sure where to go. All I can say is I’m working on these things and again, I’ll definitely look over your archives.
Scream with pleasure, maybe. That’s one of my hottest fantasies.
Yes, and after Sawyer throws out every traumatic cliche possible in looking for the “trigger” for your “falling into sex work” to which you repeatedly answered no, then she hits on, “Ever been hurt?”. Wow. What a lame AHA! moment. Good grief.
Such an excellent post. I don’t really know how I feel monogamy anymore, either. I used to think it was “it”. These days, I’m torn. But, like others have said, intimacy is so important. I just find myself looking for it in less obvious places, because, really, it can exist in any type of relationship. Actually, on some level even with strangers. A lady I used to work with once told me to touch everyone I meet like they’re a lover. Good advice.
A lady I used to work with once told me to touch everyone I meet like they’re a lover.
Careful with that – in many places that will get you arrested! ;-)
lol. Well, I use the term touch loosely.
Unless, you’re talking about the grocery store incident with the underaged bagger (he had a beard, man, he had a beard), which I’m unable to discuss because of the gag order.
by Mandi – “Marriage and relationships are hard an require a great deal of work. It is easy to just give up, but it is so much easier in the long run to just work through it.”
I agree, although my 19 year marriage is not quite the sexually happy union it can/should be. I cannot blame it all on my wife, as there is something to her contention that some of my shortcomings as a husband (not physically) has slowly eroded some of her passion for me. Getting married at a young age didn’t help us, but we have muddled through it. I chafe at her expectations of perfection from me, and wish she could just accept my personality/character quirks and stop wishing for the butterfly-like transformation she apparently still pines for.
Meanwhile, my requests/expectations of at least weekly sex sessions have fallen on deaf ears, (at least since the first newlywed year,) and I make up the difference with porn and masturbation. Much to my ultra conservative wife’s chagrin. And around we go. Oh well, we all have our crosses to bear.
But are there moments/weeks of pure bliss that make it all seem worthwhile, not the least of which are our 3 beautiful kids? Yes, and I weigh all that and stay, as does she. Here is a central point for me: wife and I both suffered through our parents’ divorces, and therefore have such a fierce determination to stay together for the kids’ sake that it overrides almost everything else.
I mean, if you accept that: 1) all the studies are true that point out how kids are much more stable later in life if their (non-abusive) parents stayed together, and 2) most parents say they would ‘die’ for their kids, and 3) most of the conflict in the marriage is not out in the open in front of the kids, and 4) there is no physical abuse, then why would you not go to hell and back to make it work? Anything less seems like a cop-out, and/or you are lying about your willingness to ‘do anything to make my kids happy’.
That’s just my $.02 on it…..
Thanks for the boinkology link too, debauchette. The short commentary ‘A Right to Infidelity’, in response to NY Mag article (linked there,) was spot on, IMHO.
http://boinkology.com/2008/05/20/a-right-to-infidelity/
My favorite part:
“Sure, we’d probably all be better off if we had a more relaxed, more European, sensibility about sex and sexuality. We’d also be better off if we talked more, and more openly, with our partners, communicating our needs and finding workable solutions (which may or may not involve opening up the relationship).
Whining about our right to cheat on our partners, on the other hand, probably won’t do shit.”
And, if I may, I blog on a related topic today too:
http://blackdog-thegrassisalwaysgreener.blogspot.com/
Seriously, I can’t believe how the “monogamous relationship” vs. “promiscuous rabbit humping in the city” debate has just exploded, as if it’s one or the other, like God/religion vs. reality or something.
A lot of this comes down to 20somethings just being lazy and gluttons, and a lot of this is just empty trend setting. You’re much cooler if you’re sleeping with multiple people and if you’re the one in a relationship who doesn’t want to “commit,” leaving the other person out to dry. It’s been like this since the beginning of time, but leave it to Brooklynites to “invent” it and express such modern dissonance.
As a guy, I’m offended by the stereotype that it’s the guys who get the pass for noncommitting while the ladies are just now coming into their own and all of a sudden it’s accepted. It’s unrealistic. There are tons of guys who want to get into relationships and just sleep with one girl, who are 22-28: that “ring of fire” demographic that the media says is a total fuckfest. And there are plenty of desirable girls who want that as well.
If you can’t keep your pants on for a couple months or, gasp, a year, even though you love someone and care deeply about them, you are just stunted as a young adult. Many people like this are far too caught up with shallow ambition, the media and the Jonzes to think about what they really want.
You can’t achieve the same intimacy in an open relationship – the problem with those is that it becomes a race to see who’s going to get upset the fastest when one person’s deeper feelings come into play. It’s just wasted human interaction at its deepest, closest level. Even if you’re young and don’t want to get married, those experiences with “closed” relationships will make you stronger.
It’s not a sign of weakness to just screw one person, nor is it boring. Why do so many magazines speak for 20somethings as if we’ve already been through 3 boring marriages with the dryest, vanilla screwing imaginable? It’s bogus. The media reports this because sex sells, and New Yorkers live by it because other New Yorkers (the media) do it and say they do. Haha. And then New Yorkers rah-rah on and on about their Open Relationship/Screwing Darwinism over others. Wow, it’s as if hippies never existed.
I guess I’m part of the “backlash,” so be it. But there are plenty of cool fucking dudes out there who have screwed plenty of gals, met one girl, desired her and only her and been monogamous without getting the shakes for more/different sex. And it’s lasted. Not forever, but who the hell does anything for forever? If somebody says to you, “You can have your dream job for a couple years or several and it will take you places you won’t go elsewhere …or…you can continue ‘freelancing’ and enjoy your independence and wander the unpredictability of the modern market,” I’m choosing the former if it feels right. Think for yourself, as always. But if you’re a gal, don’t go against what’s right for you. You don’t have to have 30-50 sex partners by the time you’re 30 to feel like you put your 20s to use. Ugh.
HT – Valid points, but for a different argument, I think. I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that monogamy is a “sign of weakness.” Nor do I think anyone’s suggesting that we should gorge ourselves on as many partners as possible, passively.
There’s a learning curve in the choices we make. You learn something from promiscuity; you learn something else from a monogamous relationship; you learn something else from an open relationship. I think this discussion is more about feeling free to question whether monogamy, or the monogamy we know, is working for us and whether we need to think about relationships differently.
I’m part of the recent traffic pop, and I can’t tell you how glad I am to see sex-positivity coming into its own.
I have issues with How Trendy’s remarks (I came here through a link in a polyamory community I am a part of), because I think they’re faulty. It is possible to have a committed and loving, deeply intimate relationship without monogamy or monotony. I know, because I am in one. I have been for the past four years, and other before my current relationship. Interestingly, not one of my open relationships has been broken up as a result of outside lovers.
Am I committed to my partner? Completely. We own property together, we have legal protections in place for one another, we consult one another in all things. His girlfriends are friends of mine, as are my metamours to him. We have date nights with each other regularly, to ensure we are connecting and caught up with one another – and we have date nights with our respective other XFs, as well as family time in which we all catch up and relax.
Poly folk like to say it’s not all about the sex – and mono folk like to think that’s all it is. It’s both and neither, all at the same time. Do I like making out with my girlfriends and boyfriends? Sure. I like sex with them, and with my partner, and sometimes all of us together. But that’s not the basis of the relationships in our case – nor in many others. Can I love them all? Yeh, just like I love Mom and Dad and Brother and Sister and Aunt and Uncle. Loving all of them doesn’t mean I care less about any of them – they are all separate relationships with unique dynamics. Why should I feel compelled to limit myself to one type of love dynamic? It’s not as though it’s a zero-sum game; loving more than one person doesn’t deplete my stock.
At any rate: Thank you, Debauchette. Sorry for my ramble.
You can’t achieve the same intimacy in an open relationship
I absolutely and unequivocally disagree with that statement. I’ve been in an open relationship with someone for almost four years and we have the most intense emotionally intimate relationship of anyone I’ve known.
@ debauchette
Cool. I’m not attempting to speak for 20something women, but I do feel like there is increasing social pressure (not just intelligent discourse) to “grow” by putting themselves out there to as many sexual experiences as possible, and it’s really beginning to overshadow what it means to be empowered as a young woman in general, especially to guys my age, which I think is important to highlight. I know guys have long had their say about women/sex in America, but you know what, most guys my age haven’t had a say and we’re not properly represented by the media or by women. And I’m not talking about the cliche overgrown Emo manchild.
We’re not the sleazebags and opportunists of prior generations. The main points of the cover story in NY Mag were incredibly cliche. From my standpoint, 20something guys are just as confused about sex as girls right now and having the same conversations about it, but in a way, our conversations are more taboo than the “group think” of modern day women saying “I want to be promiscuous and it’s great.” Hahah. I mean, that just adds to our feeling of “you know what, maybe I want a relationship, but are there any cool 20something girls who really want that and aren’t riding this open relationship wave? Are they going to be doubting whether it’s right to be committed the entire time?”
I’m all for a girl fulfilling her sex drive and she should never feel bad about it—but even dudes feel that doldrum vibe occasionally–but it’s important to state in essays and discussions about this that they shouldn’t feel “abnormal” or get bummed just because they haven’t hit a promiscuous stride post-college. It’s becoming more common to “boldly” proclaim that promiscuity is a requisite for being a complete female, but the fact is, it’s not. By no means is that a conservative viewpoint either. I think a lot of 20something women and men get a lot of this empowerment and experimentation out in university, but now we’re seeing another “stride” hit the culture post-college, which is understandable given the job market, competition, random chaos, uncertainty and advanced eugenics around us.
In the end, it’s prob just Murphy’s Law. Girls today want open relationships and want to fuck around more than ever. Naturally, more guys are going to be like, “hmmmmm.” The guys who are all like “Welcome to the party ladies!” = I have no idea what fucking party (literally) they’re welcoming you to. Haha. Sounds pretty lame, like toasting the SATC movie or something. This urban legend about men (sans the d-bags) is bullshit, but the pendulum goes both ways, so have fun with it. Monogamy and promiscuity are both filled with traps and pleasures. Building clubs around either is just odd.
How Trendy-
I sometimes feel like guys are spending their time trying to catch up with feminism (in all its many forms), trying to figure out what exactly they are supposed to do. A lot of feminism is about women seizing their identities for themselves. I haven’t yet seen an equivalent for men. Men are still supposed to be bad boys or gentlemen or nice guys.
So you know you want a hetero monogamous relationship? Congrats. But wait- not all girls want that. In fact, fewer and fewer girls want that. Yes, that does in fact mean that dating will be harder for you. However, it doesn’t mean that you should stop looking for what makes you happy.
You wouldn’t want to get caught in a relationship with a woman who was monogamous because that was how she had to be. I would doubt a poly girl would want to be in an open relationship with someone who truly wanted to be monogamous. Don’t try to convince everyone to behave the way you think they should; look for the girl who wants to do that anyway. She’ll make you a lot happier.
“Sex with someone changes over time in interesting and beautiful ways. Aggressive sex tends to expand my boundaries; intimate sex tends to deepen the territory within those limits. It allows me to shut off my brain, to be primal, physical, and open, and to experience someone else in an equally primal state. It heightens my empathy. It reminds me to stay in the moment.”
This is one thing that as I explore, I continue to be astounded by. Aggressive sex has not only made me more comfortable with my fantasies, it’s also led me to understand some deep parts of my personality a lot better. Like making a conscious choice of allowing a man to bind or spank me; There’s something powerful about making that choice to relinquish power. And some of my most intimate moments have been with a partner amid hyper-aggressive sex. It opens up a whole wormhole of intimacy that one can’t even define by the same terms as he would the intimacy of a relationship. It increases trust in my partner and in myself and I can finally relax enough to feel those emotions that I hide during the non-sexual parts of a relationship. It’s so important to me now, even if just for those reasons.
hmmm how did I get here…I guess I’m attracted to anything which pertains to sex and partners.
At 54yrs (I’m not ageist) and a self confessing serial monogamist (mostly) – I have only been in one ‘open’ relationship. Sex is so important to most of us, particularly when it’s good sex (I won’t define good sex, as it’s personal thing)… I like many, appreciate companionship, shared views, interests etc. But, the ’sauce’ that holds the meal together- is sex.
As a species I do not believe we are meant to be monogamous…over time, if that happens great. My partner and I have been together for about 8yrs, and share some interests out of the boudoir, but they are few…mainly passive eg. food, wine, movies sociology and travel – we have not traveled overseas together.
My eye still wanders, as I’m sure hers does, but the effort required along with the knock-backs, don’t really make it worth the effort these days…Luckily we both still find each other sexually attractive, even with our physical deteriorations.
Without doubt, we both have had many exciting liaisons over the years, before getting together. But we have grown together sexually – both understanding each others needs, and catering for them. In fact it is more passionate today, than when we 1st met..we are more explorative.
I guess there is no need to be monogamous whilst younger, provided you are honest and responsible for your actions…but yeah, don’t get caught in that ‘Judeo Christian construct’ either
Thankfully, I have ended up in a partnership I can live with, and go into my ‘fucking’ dotage with.
I know I’m jumping in again, but this has to be one of the most interesting comment threads I’ve read. To be monogamous or no, etc, ad infinitum. It’s all about finding the right fit for you and screw the stereotypes. Plus I’ve found that a lot of the time what you want out of relationships changes depending on the person you’re with.
I kept silent on this thread, but then decided I should speak up. It’s hard to be open, and I look to those of you who are openly writing as guideposts in what is possible. Thank you for writing the way you do.
My wife doesn’t find my sluttiness particularly attractive. My lover does. And with my lover (whom my wife knows about) I open up, find myself in new places, redefine who I am, all in ways you describe (which slutty duckling quotes). I am more me, because of her. Before she entered my life, I was afraid of myself. Now, I am at home. But I don’t live with her, and my wife (says herself) that she gets the reward of my stronger soul. And alexad says what I feel about my lover, as well. It’s pretty great.
So what, exactly, is monogamy? In my life, it was a barrier. What you describe with Gabriel sounds powerful, nearly terrifying in its depth. It sounds utterly gorgeous.
hello again…I just wanted to respond to what ‘what Liz said’.
In a perfect world I would agree with you entirely…experience has shown me you can’t be entirely selfish in the emotion stakes or anything for that matter…one does have to make compromises every day.
As I pointed out, coming from my perspective-sex is what keeps me going…masturbating infinitum won’t do it for me. If I wish to be in a sexual relationship with a particular person, then I have to be aware that the other person has needs and compromise may be needed.
Obviously, the sexual mores of western democracies are constantly changing from one generation to the next..and in differing socio economic groups.
So yes you can stick to ya gun’s and be uncompromising…but unless you can pay for sex, then it could very easily be off the menu…no thanks.
“I’ve seen too many unhappy marriages to believe it’s the norm, and I question whether we should expect it to be.”
– that pretty much sums up my parents and every other marriage I’ve seen up close. even when people stick together, they rarely seem happy, and if you’re with them but not happy, is it worth it? love the blog.
“I love the sense of discovery with a new partner, or the adrenaline rush that comes from a new, disorienting, surprising, challenging scenario.”
[...]
“feeling free to question whether monogamy, or the monogamy we know, is working for us”
I think it’s more the realization that all of society doesn’t have to approach sex in the same manner. From the way you write, multiple partners seem to work for -you-. To me, it doesn’t seem to be important what (or who) everyone else is doing (or not doing), it’s more important what works for you as long as you’re upfront about it with your partners.
Hi, I looked in after picking up the irritating Sawyer interview on some HuffPo or other link, and commented on some of Debauchette’s work (the rapey Italiano thing). She gracously wrote back to my comment and I felt like I had been touched by celebrity. (Not really, but sort of.)
When someone comments on HT’s inputs using the word ‘feminism’, I sigh a little bit. Because there’s one thing that inspires me about this blog and Debauchette’s work, both the writey and fucky sides of it, and it’s that we seemed to have transcended categories, and were into real psychological-experiential exploration beyond gender politics.
Why should we go beyond gender politics, or perhaps on what contexts should we do that? In contexts where there is no-one to argue against. HT seems to me to represent – and I aspire after this – the 20s/30s masculinity that is essentially post-sexist. We give women whatever they want within what powers we have. And what more could anyone ask for? Except perhaps participation in a broader struggle against patriarchy where it still exists (Diane Sawyer’s brain? her hemline?). And we do that, again, with pragmatic constraints (I’m an environmental designer, and I am already busy in terms of agenda, but I do my best, short of touting for Hillary.)
So when HT-types wade in and say, hold it a tick, “who’s really winning if promiscuity becomes the main game?”, I think the response to this – hey like the lady D says in response to HT (but I am not, ahem, sucking up) – is to focus back on the personal, not to try to elaborate some post-feminist thing against HT (or any bloke) commenting on women etc. Why? Partly as I say because the gender war is not something you need to wage with people like HT. The idea that he (or his would-bes, like me) is trying to put women down substantively is no more sensible than imagining SATC is substantively putting women down.
But also, because what this blog is doing is /assuming/ rights, and saying, hey what next?!
What’s exciting about this is what I commented in my previous post (here http://debauchette.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/fucktoyism-or-faux-rape/#comment-1148): that we have reached the point that two people don’t /have/ negotiate the structures of gender power, or even the details of consent. They can just live and do whatever their emotional and physical imaginations guide them to do, as a momentary unit.
One way of saying this is to suggest that promiscuity is not the same as sluttism (or whatever noun you use for that). Promiscuity is the moralism-laced anti-monogamy: and to lionise it is to challenge monogamy. Cue HT, cue feminism comments, cue unsatisfactory analysis of what (I believe) is going on here. (If ‘here’ is a reasonable enough to word to describe Lady D’s public experiences.) Sluttism, or whatever D is doing, is something pretty much beyond political fights. The word itself implies a reclaiming of a pejorative word, quasi-political, but it’s small-p political. The experiences D describes are just personal, not back-at-the-world give-my-space etc.
I love that. It’s exciting to explore the potentials of experience, beyond politics. Let’s do more of this. The importance of this is for me: that sexism and patriarchy has only had as its smaller casuality (I realise this is a provocative comment – rhetoric, people, cool it) women’s rights. The larger casualty is the experiential and relating potential of liberated people.
We can’t find out who we as human individuals are until we go beyond patriarchy. But just putting patriarchy aside is not going beyond it. HT’s frustration (I read, but maybe project) is the lack of definition in experience and teleology of relating, in a non-patriarchal, okay-with-promiscuity world. I totally dig that. Absence of bad is not, in the end, a final good. In the end, it’s empty. We have to fill our social-life spaces anew.
I celebrate D’s experiences (that’s not the name you used in a message, but maybe I shouldn’t mention that?), not because they promote promiscuity (I don’t even think they do), but because they are reconnoitering new terrain in human relational experience. The life beyond patriarchy. Fucking wow.